As a parent with a Boy Scout and as a person with gay friends and family members, I would like help getting a San Diego gay/atheist Scout troop going. I have had 5 gay individuals and two atheists ready and waiting for some boy, any boy to join our troop.

It is unfortunate but even my gay friends who have kids won't put their boys into this troop. I have also talked with many Gay scouting supporters and not one of them will put their boy where their mouth is. You folks have to do it!!!!!, you must put your boy in a troop with gay leaders and put your kids where your mouth is.

I also have a troop full of willing leaders who are admittedly into bestiality. Please help get some boys to join these troops. Once we do that we are well on our way to achieving the goal of forcing an organization like BSA to no longer teach morality to anyone.

Thanks for you time.

The Answer:

Thank you for writing; your sarcasm is not lost on me; however, I have the feeling that you do not even begin to know what we are about.

First, I am a sixty-six year old man with fifty-four years in Scouting. I am an Eagle Scout and a Vigil member of the Order of the Arrow. I am a father and a grandfather. I would venture to say that I was in Scouting before you were born. I was a Scoutmaster for twenty-three years and some of my scouts contact me even now to let me know how they are doing.

All we are asking for is a level playing field. The parents (who are the troop committee) along with the sponsoring institution are the ones who should choose the Scoutmaster, not [the Boy Scouts of America] National [Headquarters]. The big fear seems to be pedophilia. National BSA, in their own YPG course (Youth Protection Guidelines) state that the average pedophile is married, in his thirties and has two children.

There are gays in the troops right now but they are "in the closet". Any time you choose an entire segment of the population and say there is something bad about them, you are promoting hate. That is not good for you or me. There is always someone to hate for those who will. It was the Jews. Then it was African-Americans. Now it is the Gays. Hate wastes so much energy and accomplishes nothing.

Yours In Scouting,

Howard Menzer
Southwest Director Scouting For All

The Question:

I appreciate your response considering my sarcasm.

With all of your experience and wisdom, I would like you to explain your decision, and how it will benefit the millions boys 7 to 17. The boys specifically please. Not the people with an agenda for themselves.

Then you can tell me why I as a parent can not under any circumstances dictate the influences to some degree brought before my child. Scouting used to be a stronghold for morality.

The gay population I have no problem with, I do however disagree with their need for everyone on the planet to accept a choice they made. They are not a race, they are not a color, and they are a group of individuals who made a choice.

Finally on the atheist issue. In my opinion one who believes there is no higher power than himself is not a good influence for my boy.

You see my concern is my boy. Whether or not a gay or atheist should be in scouting is taking away my boys right to the same BSA you grew up with.

Thank you once again.

The Answer:

My concern is for the boys. For example, the child of seven years old who is denied membership in Tiger cubs because he has two moms. Another example, the fourteen year old who comes into puberty and realized that he is gay. He did not know this at age seven when he became tiger cub or eight when he became a cub. Now he must stay in the closet for if he speaks to his Scoutmaster he will be thrown out.

I am concerned that the suicide rate among rainbow children is three times that of heterosexual children. I am concerned that an organization who's charter says that they are there for all boys now teaches exclusion of about 10% (or more) of them. I will bring you back to my first remarks to you. Whether you want to or not, you are teaching that these rainbow children are second-class citizens and that sir, promotes hate. A whole generation that will hate a portion of the citizens of the great melting pot we call America.

Let the parents of the boys, for they are the troop committee, and the sponsoring institution make the decision as to who will teach and lead their children.

And now the largest question. Being gay is not a choice we make. We are born that way. Some of us go to great lengths to deny it. I got married and had three children to prove I was not gay. I was miserable. I am now living with a very nice man for more than seven years and yes, I am monogamous.

As for the young man who is an atheist, he is saying I don't see it and so I cannot believe in it. He needs proof. Some day he may change his mind, but for now respect his right to believe in a non-higher power as you and I believe in a higher power. He is no less moral than you or I. Maybe more so for speaking his mind in the face of adversity.

As for your son, he will deal with all sorts of people as he grows. A scouting environment is a safe one and a good place to meet those that think differently than him. Dialog is the best equalizer I know.

In short help make the discussion about your troop through the troop committee. I do understand your concern but teaching hate is not the answer. Be active with your son and meet the others in the troop and you will see we are all the same. In twenty-three years I never influenced any boy to be anything but a good citizen who exemplifies the Scout Oath and Law.

Yours In Scouting,

Howard Menzer
Southwest Regional Director, Scouting For All

The Question:

Thank you once again for your response. I also apologize for my impatience. I have some more questions for you and I hope you take them as sincere and not anything else.

I don't consider gays or anyone else for that matter second-class citizen. I do know they have different wants and needs than I. I truly respect that. Girls have different needs, hetero males have different needs and gays have different needs. We all have to live, love and get along.

In light of the above how do we really mix gay and straight leaders and boys on a camping trip?

I know as a man, and a father that it would not be wise to allow my son (whose hormones are raging) to sleep in the same tent as a daughter of a couple camping with us. How will we as leaders deal with a gay boy who’s hormones are raging in the same tent as other boy(s).

We can't really put the gays boys in the same tent with each other either; we cannot make them feel bad by having them sleep alone. We both know that they will find a way to do what they want in that regard, my son included of course. But that does not relieve us all of our responsibility on these camp outs.

The gay boys and leaders will all shower together Howard. That is like me being in a shower at a camp out with a woman. I would be kicked out for that. Please don't call this homophobia. Almost every woman would be uncomfortable showering with a hetero male present. She would also be uncomfortable walking into a restroom with males using it. Call me a sensitive woman if you want, but I am not afraid of gays or being gay.

I work with gays, I have gay friends, and I do have gay family members. I love them all dearly and respect them. But I am uncomfortable using a public restroom and showers. Maybe I am not being very eloquent here but you are, and maybe you could give me some insight on how some these issues might be resolved.

Thank you once again and I certainly hope that these real, basic issues are being addressed now, and that folks are not waiting till the last minute when BSA changes its policy.

The Answer:

Your fears are real. Know that children experiment. That is part of finding out who they are. Hetero children experiment. They masturbate and masturbate together. They roll over in the tent and touch each other.

Remember this, according to YPG [Boy Scout of America's Youth Protection Guidelines] children and adults should not shower together. There is also safety in numbers. We used four man and three man tents. There will still be some "horsing“ around but that is OK.

As far as second-class citizen is concerned, any time you exclude an entire group, which is what they become in the eyes of those on top. It is not that you mean to but this is what happens: The kids are told, "They are not moral.", "They do terrible things.", "If you touch yourself you will become like those terrible people." And the hate develops. Now I am not saying that you personally say these things but I have heard them all said.

As far as community showers they are very popular in Europe. We seem to be behind. It should also be noted that most gays are particular just like straights. We are not looking for sex wherever we can get it. As I said I am with one person for more than seven years and do not fool around on the side. That is more than I can say for many of my straight counter-parts.

In short, "Sex" is not a topic for a Scout meeting and it is not a topic for camp-outs. Not by the kids and not by the adults. I never let married couples sleep together on a camp-out either. The fact is there are gays in the troops and they are hidden by necessity. Wouldn’t it be better to be accepting and open and know who they are?